Altec 19 hookup wire

Oh boy, another speaker cable thread. Attitudes toward loudspeaker damping, amplifier output impedance etc. have shifted drastically over the years, so it is useful to recall a quote from the good old days, when many of the speaker components we revere were invented. The article titled "Improved Loudspeaker System for Theaters" was written by J.B. Lansing and J.K. Hilliard in 1945, and in it these gentlemen described the new Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater systems:

"Sufficient damping of the vibrating elements of the units are provided in the magnetic circuit so that it is not necessary to provide additional damping from the driving amplifiers. In the past it has been customary to adjust the amplifier output impedance to a value of approximately one half to one third of the average loudspeaker impedance. Improved performance can be obtained with the new loudspeaker when the amplifier and loudspeaker impedances are approximately equal."

Now the network impedance of the VOTT systems was twelve ohms, and I'm not sure I know of an amplifier with that high of an output impedance old or new. At the time Altec was mostly building push pull 6L6G amps- not sure about the extent of negative feedback. I do know that my brother the electronics whiz explained to me long ago that energy transfer in a transmission line is theoretically 100% when source and load impedances are matched, and efficiency suffers and reflections and standing waves in the line ensue to the extent that impedances are mismatched. This is completely different from the modern concept of high "damping factor", where the amplifier output impedance is thought to ideally be only a tiny fraction of load impedance.

In my years of experimenting with mostly highly efficient horn drivers, I have found that using fine gauge copper magnet wire, 26 gauge mostly, provides the best sound. Detail, clarity, soundstage all improve. Try it, you'll like it! Heavy "audiophile" cable on highly efficient speakers just slows down and mucks up the sound. Not sure of all the reasons for this, but I have heard the bad results on many occasions. Especially when using high damping factor solid state amplifiers, adding an ohm or two of series resistance in the speaker line usefully loosens the death grip of the amp on the speaker, with much improved natural sound resulting. With careful shopping this wire can be yours for a dollar or two per mile, which is why you will seldom hear cable vendors singing its praises. I don't recommend longer than necessary runs, but 20' of #26 on a compression driver is just fine.

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Originally Posted by Steve Schell

Oh boy, another speaker cable thread. Attitudes toward loudspeaker damping, amplifier output impedance etc. have shifted drastically over the years, so it is useful to recall a quote from the good old days, when many of the speaker components we revere were invented. The article titled "Improved Loudspeaker System for Theaters" was written by J.B. Lansing and J.K. Hilliard in 1945, and in it these gentlemen described the new Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater systems:

"Sufficient damping of the vibrating elements of the units are provided in the magnetic circuit so that it is not necessary to provide additional damping from the driving amplifiers. In the past it has been customary to adjust the amplifier output impedance to a value of approximately one half to one third of the average loudspeaker impedance. Improved performance can be obtained with the new loudspeaker when the amplifier and loudspeaker impedances are approximately equal."

Now the network impedance of the VOTT systems was twelve ohms, and I'm not sure I know of an amplifier with that high of an output impedance old or new. At the time Altec was mostly building push pull 6L6G amps- not sure about the extent of negative feedback. I do know that my brother the electronics whiz explained to me long ago that energy transfer in a transmission line is theoretically 100% when source and load impedances are matched, and efficiency suffers and reflections and standing waves in the line ensue to the extent that impedances are mismatched. This is completely different from the modern concept of high "damping factor", where the amplifier output impedance is thought to ideally be only a tiny fraction of load impedance.

In my years of experimenting with mostly highly efficient horn drivers, I have found that using fine gauge copper magnet wire, 26 gauge mostly, provides the best sound. Detail, clarity, soundstage all improve. Try it, you'll like it! Heavy "audiophile" cable on highly efficient speakers just slows down and mucks up the sound. Not sure of all the reasons for this, but I have heard the bad results on many occasions. Especially when using high damping factor solid state amplifiers, adding an ohm or two of series resistance in the speaker line usefully loosens the death grip of the amp on the speaker, with much improved natural sound resulting. With careful shopping this wire can be yours for a dollar or two per mile, which is why you will seldom hear cable vendors singing its praises. I don't recommend longer than necessary runs, but 20' of #26 on a compression driver is just fine.

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Thanks for your wisdom, here, Steve. I am seeing similar results.

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

Hi Steve, I agree another one of the cable threads.My Vo-Tech teacher Llyod Wismer was a Lineman for 25 years and then went on to teach at the Assunpink Center in Mercer county he was my teacher.When I was his student he had been in the trade for 50+ years This guy knew his stuff our class would try to stump him everyday "Nothing Happening" :) When I talk to alot of old time Electricians I know they all know this guy.He was a consultant for the IBEW when he was teaching.I posed this question to him, what wire allows current to flow better solid or stranded wire.Without hesitation he said Fine Strand wire.In the case of speaker wire that is fine stranded, each strand will act as a transmission line.And in the real small strands, they are alot smaller than 26 gauge.;)

When they are incased in insulation and twisted together the electrons will flow on the outside surface of the wire.Do I understand it "No" but this is how it was explained to me.Was some 26-28 years ago though.Electronics & Electrical Construction are 2 different trades as I can attest.Cause I know nothing about electronics.:2thumbsup:

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Perhaps the folks at Audioquest had Mr. Wismer as a teacher.;)

how do you handle the pair of 26 gauge magnet wire when the run is several feet,,?? do twist it or make separate parallel runs,,??

want to give a try on my A7s but running behind a wall presents some difficulty to not nick the coating,,

appreciate any direction,,

Derry

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

I wouldn't use lamp cord for lamps.

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You must have different lamp cord in your country. The stuff here is just fine. Inexpensive yes, cheap no. It doesn't look as pretty as the boutique cable but the last time I checked electrons don't have eyes and don't care, only the listener did.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. If the original gauge is 20 or 22 and Schell recommends 26 magnet wire...

So I think I'm going to replace the internals with OCC in the 20s. I'm using Anticables' OCC magnet wire for speaker cables and really like them but they're about a 14 gauge. If I can find epoxied OCC magnet/transformer wire in 22, 24 or 26 I'll just wire everything up from amp to drivers in the same material.

Anyone have a source? Partsconnexion has OCC in fine gauge bare wire or with teflon or PVC dielectric but not the red epoxied OCC.

Transmission lines - or not?

See here:

``Long'' and ``short'' transmission lines : TRANSMISSION LINES

Cheers, Marshall.

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Originally Posted by Cal Weldon

You must have different lamp cord in your country. The stuff here is just fine. Inexpensive yes, cheap no. It doesn't look as pretty as the boutique cable but the last time I checked electrons don't have eyes and don't care, only the listener did.

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Hey Cal, The lamp cord around here has been really cheap almost fire hazard cheap.I've seen more lamp cord wire shorted than any other wire cable.I won't use it ever.Time to move on from this wire thread.;)

Westend9, Mr. Wismer may have had it exactly right, I don't know. I have read that higher frequencies travel along the outside ("skin") of the wire while low frequencies travel at a slower speed through the wire core, causing "time smear" and consequent damage to all those golden eared audiophile subtleties. I have also heard RF circuit designers opine that this is pure BS, that skin effect can be a factor in antenna designs and such, but that audio frequencies are all very slow by comparison, and it is all traveling at nearly light speed anyway, so any variation in speed vs. frequency would be negligible. I don't know about all of this, but have noticed that fine magnet wire sounds mo' better to me and so I go with what works.

Derry I used to route the #26 across the ceiling between amplifier and speaker, spacing the two leads a couple of inches apart and holding it in place with transparent tape. Believe me, this wigs people out at hi fi shows. More recently I have taken to spinning it into a twisted pair with a drill, with no apparent sonic losses and perhaps a bit less noise induced. I live across the street from a Boeing plant, so there are all sorts of interesting EMI and RFI noises passing through. I now run the leads on the ground, covering it with carpet samples in foot paths. My speaker business partner and I have taken to covering the wire with black woven nylon jacketing and shrink wrapped terminations, which looks appropriately "high end" at shows.

Let me stress that I am not saying this fine stuff is for everybody. I am running field coil compression driver horn systems with around 108dB sensitivity, so the current flowing in my speaker cables is minimal. I drive my horn subwoofer from a separate SS amplifier, so I "man up" and use something like 18 gauge for this!

Timoteus, I bought an assortment of fine magnet wire sizes on 10lb. rolls year ago on ebay. It may still be a good source for surplus wire, maybe not OCC but good sounding stuff, If you don't have any luck finding what you need, let me know and I'll set you up.

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Originally Posted by mah

Transmission lines - or not?

See here:

``Long'' and ``short'' transmission lines : TRANSMISSION LINES

Cheers, Marshall.

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Thanks, Marshall, that was a good read.

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Originally Posted by Steve Schell

Westend9, Mr. Wismer may have had it exactly right, I don't know. I have read that higher frequencies travel along the outside ("skin") of the wire while low frequencies travel at a slower speed through the wire core, causing "time smear" and consequent damage to all those golden eared audiophile subtleties. I have also heard RF circuit designers opine that this is pure BS, that skin effect can be a factor in antenna designs and such, but that audio frequencies are all very slow by comparison, and it is all traveling at nearly light speed anyway, so any variation in speed vs. frequency would be negligible. I don't know about all of this, but have noticed that fine magnet wire sounds mo' better to me and so I go with what works.

Derry I used to route the #26 across the ceiling between amplifier and speaker, spacing the two leads a couple of inches apart and holding it in place with transparent tape. Believe me, this wigs people out at hi fi shows. More recently I have taken to spinning it into a twisted pair with a drill, with no apparent sonic losses and perhaps a bit less noise induced. I live across the street from a Boeing plant, so there are all sorts of interesting EMI and RFI noises passing through. I now run the leads on the ground, covering it with carpet samples in foot paths. My speaker business partner and I have taken to covering the wire with black woven nylon jacketing and shrink wrapped terminations, which looks appropriately "high end" at shows.

Let me stress that I am not saying this fine stuff is for everybody. I am running field coil compression driver horn systems with around 108dB sensitivity, so the current flowing in my speaker cables is minimal. I drive my horn subwoofer from a separate SS amplifier, so I "man up" and use something like 18 gauge for this!

Timoteus, I bought an assortment of fine magnet wire sizes on 10lb. rolls year ago on ebay. It may still be a good source for surplus wire, maybe not OCC but good sounding stuff, If you don't have any luck finding what you need, let me know and I'll set you up.

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We're on the same page regarding skin effect.
In the manner of hookup wire, I've noticed little difference between teflon jacketed OFC wire and common copper. Case specific examples are rare, depicting inductive noise interference in components and short runs in other uses.
I have found a local electronics surplus distributor that sells all manner of wire and other bits for low prices. I would imagine that any decent sized city has at least one of these around.

[quote=Steve Schell;1831755]

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Westend9, Mr. Wismer may have had it exactly right, I don't know. I have read that higher frequencies travel along the outside ("skin") of the wire while low frequencies travel at a slower speed through the wire core, causing "time smear" and consequent damage to all those golden eared audiophile subtleties

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Thanks Steve having said that I just tried to explain how it was explained to me.Right or Wrong I don't know. Difference so slight that us regular folks(Mediocre Ears)couldn't tell the difference.

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I don't know about all of this, but have noticed that fine magnet wire sounds mo' better to me and so I go with what works.

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And that is what I was going to say that you should use what is best for you.I chose to delete my posts because I didn't want to get in the middle of another wire "WAR".I just wished you were here more often.As I really enjoy your posts and I can learn quite a bit from your obviously extensive wisdom. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/08/1.gif

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Let me stress that I am not saying this fine stuff is for everybody. I am running field coil compression driver horn systems with around 108dB sensitivity, so the current flowing in my speaker cables is minimal. I drive my horn subwoofer from a separate SS amplifier, so I "man up" and use something like 18 gauge for this!

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Agreed ! I'm driving my speakers at the moment with SS 200 watts per channel,for me the 26 gauge is too thin I think, so "Manning Up" was necessary http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/08/1.gif.The 26 gauge would be perfect for tubes with say 20-30 watt.I don't know how many of us are using field coil drivers, as they are quite expensive.My point was for fine stranded wire as opposed to solid wire really, regardless of gauge AWG.IMHO :)

Thanks again Steve !! Kind Regards ~ John